It will take generations: three denim experts on trust, transparency and the limits of ​‘sustainable’

An interview by Cheryll Mühlen.

Running a sustainability-focused brand or store might be more challenging today than ever. New regulations are designed to put an end to greenwashing, but they also change the rules for those who have been pushing for better practices long before sustainability became a marketing claim. At the same time, new developments in fibres, recycling and washing processes are raising a different question: What does a better denim product actually look like today?

And then there is the customer. While expectations around transparency are growing, willingness to pay for them does not necessarily follow. So what happens when you put three experts with different perspectives around the same table?

Wouter Noterman, Managing Director of Atelier Noterman, Tonny van Bavel, Co-founder and CEO of Belgian retailer Supergoods and Heiko Wunder, Founder and CEO of German brand wunderwerk discuss the state of menswear denim, the limits of recycled cotton, sustainability fatigue, price sensitivity and why transparency, trust and consistency might matter more than the word ​‘sustainable’ itself.

Let’s start with the product itself and talk about the state of the art of denim, specifically menswear denim. Looking at fits, washes, fabrics and more sustainable developments: What have been the most relevant developments in recent years?

Wouter: For me, one of the key developments is the combination of recycled yarn and virgin cotton. Circularity is important, but when you use recycled yarn, the fabric can become less strong. And durability is part of sustainability too. That balance is something we constantly have to consider in development.

Tonny: I think we’ve been selling sustainable brands for about 14 years, and recycled jeans, regenerative cotton and organic cotton have been very stable topics throughout that time. The degree to which fabrics can be recycled, whether it’s 30%, 40%, 50% or more, has always varied because of the strength of the fabrics, as Wouter mentioned.

For me, the more recent developments are smaller, but interesting. We may, for example, be able to get rid of elastane because there are alternatives. And if you weave cotton in a certain way, it can become stretchable without adding elastane. Kings of Indigo, for example, has developed this kind of natural stretch.

So I don’t think we are seeing one huge development. It’s more about these small, ever-evolving changes. Of course, fits have changed as well. We haven’t been wearing very slim fits for a while, although they are already returning on the catwalks.

Heiko, you often focus on the chemical side of designing and developing denim. But before we get into that, what are you currently seeing in terms of fits?

Heiko: At the moment, you see almost everything in the market. Three years ago, baggies became very strong, as did wide legs. Now we see a strong demand for straight fits that are a little wider than a normal straight. It’s moving in the direction of a baggy, but it’s not as low or as wide. The customer wants something in the middle, a comfortable or relaxed straight leg. In my opinion, that is the right denim at the moment. 
When it comes to recycled cotton, however, we don’t follow that approach at all. Recycled cotton can work well for certain applications, but for fashion I see a challenge problem if we don’t know exactly where the material comes from and what it has been exposed to before. If we could recycle organic cotton, that would be fantastic. But there is currently not enough of it available.

So, in your opinion, is there still a gap in what recycling can or should actually deliver?

Heiko: Yes. Usually, there simply isn’t enough organic cotton waste available. For example, we have suppliers of shirting fabrics and jersey who recycle everything. That’s fantastic, but not all of it is organic, so it gets mixed with conventional cotton and other fibres.

If suppliers could bundle enough material to enable recycling with 100% organic cotton, or with blends that can be sustainably recycled, such as TENCEL Lyocell or TENCEL Modal, that would be perfect. But the issue is that you have to look beyond the fibre itself. Many companies use organic cotton to produce denim and then use chemicals like chlorine in the washing process. So organic cotton alone doesn’t necessarily tell the whole story about the final product. You also have to take the dyeing, finishing and washing processes into account.

There are suppliers that offer more sustainable washing methods, such as ozone washing. However, these methods can be more expensive, and that remains a problem for many companies.

What I find interesting is how quickly we’ve seen just how complex denim production can become, because even within a term like sustainability, there are so many different layers. We have the fibre itself, recycling, dyeing, washing and, ultimately, durability. But let’s move from the product to the customer for a moment. If you have a male customer standing in front of the denim shelf today, what kind of jeans is he picking? And is sustainability, or the way a product has been made, still an argument for buying it?

Wouter: We have been talking about sustainability for a long time. Five years ago, we often heard retailers say, ​“Yes, it’s a nice story, but we have to make our margin and consumers are not buying it.” Now we see that more and more people who pay 200 euros or more for a pair of trousers want to know where it was made, how it was made and where it comes from. So I do see an evolution. Consumers are becoming more interested in the origin of the product.

Of course, a large part of the mass market still buys a product simply because it looks nice, regardless of where it comes from. But in the shops where we sell, we see more and more consumers asking these questions. So for me, the evolution is positive.

Tonny: I’m not sure whether the interest is actually greater than before. I think there is also a certain sustainability fatigue. Over the past five years, I have felt that the bigger companies have stolen our language. Ten years ago, we were saying, ​“We sell sustainable clothes,” and then explaining exactly why. Then every company started talking about sustainability, and it became much more difficult to differentiate yourself.

And now, with all the legislation coming up, we are reaching a point where we can hardly use the word ​‘sustainable’ anymore. I find that extremely confusing. We almost have to reinvent the way we communicate, even though the way we act, buy and sell hasn’t changed.

So yes, I experience a certain sustainability fatigue. But on the other hand, there is still a lot of interest.

I have also always thought that the male customer might be a more sustainable buyer simply because he tends to buy less. He goes shopping less often. And when he finds a pair of jeans that really fits, he might buy two and then actually wear both for a long time. I’ve always liked that about the male customer.

That’s an interesting point because it means that the male shopping behaviour itself might already be more sustainable, regardless of whether he consciously calls it that. He simply has a different rhythm when it comes to shopping.

Tonny: Exactly.

Heiko: What I see in our stores and online is that a lot of customers are very price-sensitive. Sustainability is great, everybody likes it and everybody thinks it’s important, but they don’t necessarily want to pay more for it.

You can explain all the details and why you are doing certain things differently, and people find it interesting. But if the trousers cost 140 euros, it can still be difficult.

So sustainability has moved a little more into the background. If someone is already willing to pay that price, then having all these arguments is very valuable. You can explain that it’s organic cotton, how it was produced and why you made certain choices.

But especially in Germany, consumers are currently reluctant to spend, and people are buying less fashion. They will spend four euros on a cappuccino every day, but they are much more reluctant to accept price increases in fashion. That’s an issue right now.

That brings us to the commercial side. The case of MUD Jeans, for example, has shown how difficult the environment can be, especially for brands with a strong sustainability focus. Of course, every case is individual. But producing a fairer product usually comes at a price, while, as Tonny just said, the language around sustainability has simultaneously become harder to own. How do you successfully navigate that environment? What is the one principle each of you would put at the centre of it?

Wouter: For me, it’s transparency. Tell people what you’re doing, but also what you’re not able to do. Explain what is possible and what is economically or commercially possible.

You have to be open and honest about what is working, what is not working, what you can do and how you are developing. Be as honest as possible.

For example, we use ozone washing, but not everything is pure ozone. For some parts, we still need chemicals. You have to be open about that. I think that’s the most important thing if you want people to believe in what you are doing.

Heiko: For me, it’s trust. Transparency is one part of that, of course, but ultimately people have to trust what you are telling them. That means declaring what you are doing, being able to stand behind it, and paying the price that reflects the quality and the way it is made.

Tonny: I once spent some time with the marketing office of a big retailer in Belgium, and the slogan of their commercial director was: ​“Do what you say and say what you do.” Especially that second part: Say what you do.

For us, it also means not backing down. We stay on the path we have chosen. If we say it’s a fair product, then we have to be able to prove that it is.

Our baseline used to be ​‘eco and fair fashion’. It has to be ecological and it has to be fair. Those two things have to come together. You can’t send somebody home with a product that doesn’t match your values. If that person checks the label at home and discovers that what you told them wasn’t true, that’s the worst thing that can happen. So for us, consistency is one of the most important things.

We’ve talked about where denim is today, but also about how much is technically already possible. We know that better materials and processes can be developed, even if they aren’t always commercially viable yet. So let’s move five years ahead. Without going completely into fantasy: If we were talking again in 2031, what would you like the state of the art in denim to look like?

Heiko: I think we will continue working on what we already have. The problem is that at the same time, extremely cheap fashion is becoming very strong on the market and therefore increasingly accepted.

I can tell you from Germany: Everybody says, ​“Sustainability is so important,” and then, on the other hand, people buy at Primark, Temu and Shein like crazy. You simply get much more items for your money. And I think that contradiction will continue. People see reports about problematic substances or production conditions and say, ​“That’s crazy,” but the next day they buy the same products again. That’s the reality we’re dealing with.

So is it hopeless?

Heiko: No, maybe not. But I think this contradiction will continue. We have to work on transparency and convince people to invest in quality, whilst raising awareness of the impact a purchase can have. And maybe we also have to make the issue more personal.

That’s interesting, because sustainability communication has traditionally focused heavily on the planet, resources and the people working in the supply chain. Do we perhaps have to bring it closer to the consumer and talk more directly about what the clothes we wear mean for ourselves?

Wouter: With food, it’s very obvious that what you consume can have an impact on your health. With clothing, that connection is much less obvious to people. Maybe we can shift towards that idea: What you wear is also on your body.

But I don’t think we can expect 90% of people to suddenly change. It will start with a minority that is aware and interested, and then, step by step, a shift can happen.

I don’t think that will happen within five years. I always talk about generations and I believe it will take generations to make a really big difference.

Frequently Asked Questions

Q: What are the most relevant recent developments in denim production?
A: According to Wouter Noterman (Atelier Noterman) and Tonny van Bavel (Supergoods), the biggest shifts are incremental rather than singular: blending recycled yarn with virgin cotton to offset the strength loss recycling causes, and weaving cotton to create natural stretch as an alternative to elastane. Recyclability rates in denim fabric have hovered between roughly 30% and 50%, limited by fabric strength.

Q: Why doesn’t recycled cotton solve denim’s sustainability problem?
A: Heiko Wunder (wunderwerk) points to a traceability gap: there usually isn’t enough organic cotton waste available, so recycled organic fibres get mixed with conventional cotton. He also notes that the fibre is only part of the picture. Dyeing, finishing and washing (including chemical use such as chlorine) affect the final product just as much as the raw material.

Q: Are consumers willing to pay more for more sustainably made jeans?
A: It’s mixed. Wouter Noterman says buyers spending upwards of €200 on trousers increasingly ask about origin and production methods. Heiko Wunder counters that most customers remain highly price-sensitive, especially in Germany, where he says people will pay for a daily coffee but resist price increases on clothing.

Q: Why is it becoming harder for fashion brands to use the word ​‘sustainable’?
A: Tonny van Bavel argues that after years of large companies using sustainability language loosely, differentiation became harder, and incoming EU rules are now tightening what can be said. From 27 September 2026, the EU’s Empowering Consumers for the Green Transition Directive (Directive (EU) 2024/825) bans generic, unsubstantiated environmental claims, including ​“sustainable,” ​“eco-friendly” and ​“green”, unless backed by recognised, verifiable evidence. Source: Taylor Wessing, ​“Status of the Green Claims Directive”

Q: What do denim brands say matters more than the word ​‘sustainable’ itself?
A: All three interviewees converge on trust and consistency over labelling. Wouter Noterman prioritises transparency about what a brand can and can’t yet do; Heiko Wunder emphasises trust and standing behind claims; Tonny van Bavel cites ​“say what you do” and describes Supergoods’ original baseline of ​“eco and fair fashion” as a promise that has to hold up if a customer checks the label at home.